PegaWorld 2025: How the Dutch Government is Transforming Policy 40% Faster!

PegaWorld 2025: How the Dutch Government Is Transforming Policy 40% Faster

Okay. Good morning everybody. If I can ask us to take our seats and get ready for the session. Thank you very much. Okay.

Thank you. Jarrett. So my name is Alex Case. I'm a senior director here at Pega and the Government Industry Principal for the European and Middle Eastern region. My only task here, and my pleasure is to introduce our two speakers this morning.

And they are Yvonne Veenma, who is the CIO at the State Supervision of Mines Agency? I'm part of the Dutch Ministry of Climate and Green Growth and Tice Henderson. Apologies for the pronunciation, I'm sure. Principal consultant at Uno. And they are going to talk to us about a very exciting story about how they have improved, increased the speed of policy transformation in the Dutch government by 40%.

And I have to say that these this is also a great story of how clients, partners and Pega can work together to really drive transformational change. So let's welcome them to the stage. Thank you very much. Thank you. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to our session.

Really nice to see you all here. We are going to talk you through our journey of this of let's say six months ago I think roughly. Yep. Um, we're going to introduce ourselves. Um, and I will tell you in advance, we're going to make a little bit of fun as well.

So put down your phones and let let us speak. Okay. So our introductions. Um, well, actually, Jason and I were discussing what makes us working so nice together. But what are also the differences?

So. Hey, I'm a mother. You're a father, right? Not together. Not together.

Fortunately. I'm a CIO. I knew it. Shut up! Robert.

John. So I'm a CIO. You are. A consultant. Yeah.

But what's making us working so nice together is that we both like golf. Golf? My handicap is better than his, for sure. And we conducted some successful projects over the past few years. And one of them was implementing Pega in 2019 at Sotm.

Um, but many, many more projects after that, right? Many more. Yeah. And what combines more? Sorry.

What? What is your last one? Fun. Fun? Yeah.

We. We like to have fun. We like to have one of the things we do just to get things going up here is. I'm not sure if you're in. If you can sit up here, if you.

If you like. Um, same same up there. Um, one of the things we did during our trip here is to celebrate birthdays. We love celebrate birthdays. Mine was.

Celebrate it. Yours was. Celebrate it. But we have somebody else here whose birthday it is today. We think so.

So, Angelo? Not sure. I can't see her. Where is Angelo? I can't see a thing because of the lights. But I'm sure you're in the room somewhere. There you. Are. Where are you? There you are.

So we have a little surprise for you. Angelo, if you come, if you can come up. Yeah. Just to get things going a little bit. And I need your help, because.

Angelo. Happy birthday, mate. Uh. You know what, guys? I want a room to sing.

I want to have a happy birthday song. Is that okay with you? Hey to you. Happy birthday to. You.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Dear Angelo. Birthday to you. Hey.

It's just a. Little thank you from us to Angelo. He's our client success manager from Pega. And thank you for having us here and helping us. Thank you so much.

So next year, it's my birthday again. So see you all next year. Yeah. Here you go. Thank you so much.

What's a good thing? What's a good thing? So now the more. Serious. Serious.

Serious, serious. Serious stuff. The introduction I think, is your. Yeah. Just to get to know each other a little bit.

I'm Thais and I work for a company called Uno. It's a small Dutch Government, a small consultancy firm working for the Dutch government. And what we do is that we look at work, the work that people do out of the physical environment. So we look at buildings, offices, all the behavior that people need to do and of course the IT part. And I like to work at the IT part.

And from that onwards, I was introduced to Yvonne about 6 or 7 years ago, and from then on I was her partner in, um, business partner business. Fair enough. Business partner in our Pega projects we've done so far. Yeah. So now you guys are wondering what we are doing at ASM state Supervision of mines.

We, uh, we have supervision and enforcement on, uh, new ways of climate energy. And we watch over the safety of the environment, the safety of people working in, in these, uh, how do you say it? Yeah, working on the on the platforms and windmills. Um, and we are actually part of the, the Ministry of Climate and Green Growth. Um, and this actually quite big ministry, as you can see on the bottom of the, of the slide, there are 20 there are 14 different execution agencies within the ministry, and a lot of them using Reichstag as a platform.

And Reichstag is the, the, the combination of Pegasystems and alfresco. And that's the solution we use since 2019. Um, and actually have to, well, get it out of legacy again, because that's a story how we got to Blueprint, right? Um, so yeah, then we skip to the challenges. I, when I came in 2019, like Pegasystems was state of the art.

It was the best platform we could have. Everybody was working pretty much fine with it. But over the past few years, and especially during Corona and how we work closely with our partners. And it was quite difficult to implement new changes and new kinds of policies. So we were facing a few problems.

One of them was the the existing policies are actually quite. Yeah. How do you say it? It's old. You know, we have to renew them.

But also new policies come quicker and faster by the day. So we also have the problem that we have to implement them even faster. Um, we learned over the past few years that the time to get to the market with new policies took very long, like several months, weeks to months. And, um, actually, last year or two years ago, I said there's a need for change. We can't handle this to the future.

So, um. Yeah, what can we do? And I talked to Thyssen and said, you know what? There must be. We can do something.

Um, but let me say the challenges of policy implementation. Are there any business analysts in the room? Business analyst. You were probably recognized like a consumer. The customer comes to you and says, you know what?

I want to introduce something new into the Pega system. You got to write down a process and a use case, and then you have to rework it a few times, and then you have to go to design and to implement it together with your with your IT development team. And it took us on average between three, four months, I think, to get something from policy into our system. Way too long. Because by the time that all was built and our our internal customers, our business people were like, ah, yeah, but that's not what we use anymore.

You know, it changed over the months. So it took us four months and a Sprint and then time to implement and oh sorry, that was that was too quick. Um, but, uh, we're Where Blueprint. We tested like six months ago. One of the main process.

One of our legal advisors came to and she said, you know what? I have this all sorted out for you. And we were like 18 pages. I think she wrote down everything, what needs to be in the process. And I said, okay, this will take months to get it into Pegasystems.

And dice came up with the idea. You know what Yvonne said, let's try to use Blueprint. So we did. And what we discovered is we could take it to production 40% faster. It was like a real game changer, right?

Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe you can elaborate a little bit on on. Would you like click or do you want to.

I'll click. You can do it yourself. Yeah. So I. Talk to you about 6 or 7 months ago that we came across Blueprint.

We experimented with Blueprint. We liked what we saw but weren't really sure how to use it. We couldn't really interpret it. So I asked you, what can we do? An experiment together?

You've got a use case we want to learn about Blueprint and mind you, this was about August last year, so it was a Blueprint version older than we have today. Um, and even then we we really enjoyed it. And, um, so I asked you, well, do you want to spend two days together and experiment? And luckily you said, sure. So.

So I've got a use case. Let's go. Let's, let's let's do so. So what did we do? The reason why I'm telling you this. Because I want you just to. To do the same whenever you go home. And you haven't used Blueprint before. Just got a bit of a feeling. But half half the room if you haven't done so.

hopefully we can we can show you how we did it. And I would encourage you to to actually do something similar. So we did a two day experiment and we just started off blank. We explained what Blueprint did and we experienced it, especially on day one with prompting. So we learned a lot about prompting in our communities this morning.

Um, and we just experimented on what do we put in, what comes out, how do we phrase the. Prompts, etc.? Um, and on day two we said, sure, there is a nice enough Blueprint coming out, but if you know Blueprint, it's a great screen, but not really an application yet. So we thought, okay, let's do so for the second day and to actually implement it into your application. Yeah.

And then the fun started. Can I add something to this? Because on day on day one, uh, a few of my team members, mainly business analysts, were also invited. And we asked them to prepare, uh, the use case. So, um, one of the analysts took, like, 20 slides.

She took it to this first day, and we started prompting. And the business analyst, you guys will maybe recognize they are thinking in a structured way. So one day prompt or when you write down something, they want to have the process followed and write it down in a use case. Um, and that's actually what also happened that day because during the prompting, the the specific business analyst, she was writing down her analytical brain all the way to prompt. And then what happened?

Did you know? Well, the first prompt we did is that we we took it as a GDP. We we we gathered all the information. Oh, don't don't forget this. Don't forget that.

So we put the emphasis on that particular part. They said okay that's important. And the result was just horrendous. It was a process way too big emphasis on the wrong things. And I looked at you and I thought, oh God, this is not going to work.

This is not going to give us, give. Us good things. Give us the right. Results. So we started experimenting with other things.

So I took my hands off and let somebody else prompt. I think it was your business analyst. And okay, let's do a let's let me try. The results were a bit better. And then I said, you know what?

We have this 18 pages of our legal advisor. She wrote down everything and said, let's put it into a Blueprint because now I'm wondering what will happen if we put it in and then just don't. It's like the. Don't interfere. On the on the table because actually we were quite surprised about that result.

Right. Well that gave us the result like oh that's great. Yeah. It comes up with things we haven't thought of but but good things. Um, so what we learned and we get to the results after this.

But what we've learned is that don't think for AI. Just make sure that you you know, what you want to want to want to achieve. Get a bit of information beforehand, but don't try to manipulate AI because AI is good for itself. You know, I was thinking it's the same when you. Sorry, that's a female joke, right?

We don't find directions. We have this navigation. And you always think you know better when our traffic jams, right? Yeah. And it always goes wrong. It's the same with AI. You know what? Don't think you know better. Stick to the plan. Stick to the plan.

Or do your own way. But nothing in between. Yeah. So let's get to the results, because this is fine. This is if you want to know more about how we did the two days.

Come and see me afterwards. But the real fun is in the results. Because, um, I think there were quite, quite surprisingly. Yeah. Um.

Well, we've talked about this a bit already. Is that, uh, the business is very important, right? Yeah. Um, the main problem at ASM was that business, and it were not that good of aligned, uh, you know what? The business came to my team and said, you know what?

I want this change. And I dropped it in and it disappeared in a black box. And hopefully a few months later, we were able to, uh, to have the user acceptance testing and then say, okay, we can go live, but there is no magic between business and and our IT department. There was no magic at all. And I said, you know what?

Maybe, um, it's a good thing that we have Blueprint right now so that we can put our business partners at the table and let them prompt whatever they want. And what we saw over the past few months is that our business and IT are much more engaged with one another. Um, and they have to take their role. The business needs to take the role. It's key if they are not at the table, if they are not with you in that room, it you don't get the best result, I think.

Um, and the other thing is, I'm sorry, I'm not wearing my glasses. Well, facilitate. Yeah, I'm that old, um, facilitator Blueprint sessions was actually the key to success. That's what we we mentioned as well. Uh, we had this two day, um, offsite.

And you know what? If you're offsite, then you get in the bubble, right? Then you have a focus and you go straight from step one to step two, not, um, other people around you asking a day to day business. Usual questions. Hey, we're having fun.

Oh, somebody's having fun. That's good. And you mentioned it already. Don't think for I that was I think I thought it was me saying this very good quote. No, I was just I was back from Barcelona from the Gartner event, and I was talking to a lady who was already a 40 years within AI.

And she said to me, you know what, Yvonne? The main thing is with AI is you do not think for AI. Let I do the thinking for you. That's one of the real essential things I want to give to you. That if you're using Blueprint don't think you know better that Blueprint do the work.

That's actually the thing. Yeah. So this is more about the results on of day two. Um, so we had your LSA join us on on day two, and I must say he looked a bit worried to start off with like, oh, what are you doing? Not in my application.

It's a it's Blueprint. Um, well, maybe you recognize that first thought when you start off things, but we took it off, and what we did is that we took the results of Blueprint and, uh, imported it into our application. And, um, he was amazed. He was like, this creates hundreds of rules, which I should have could have done by myself, but it now already creates by itself. And it took roughly about a day, uh, to get to get things up and running.

Um, I think that was mainly because we asked so many questions. What are you doing and why are you doing it? So we got a bit of a package running in between, but, uh, within a day, he, uh, he had an actual application, which we could show to to your business if we, if they, um, if they would have been there at that moment. Uh, so it's so it. It decreases the amount of development you need.

And that was for my. For me, it was mind blowing because I sometimes come across. Questions from from customers like how can you. Can you show me this or how does it work in practice? And then we do mock ups.

I see some of my colleagues from other projects sitting there. We took about 3 or 4 days to to make a mock up and or even longer. Um, but this is just so much easier, so much faster. You can interact and and get immediate feedback. Um, so we'll get the technique at the table.

I think it was quite, quite good. Um, so yeah, it sure increased the productivity. Uh, that was an important, uh. Absolutely. Yeah.

Outcome. Um, well, I ticked a few of these boxes already, but this is at the center of success. I you know what? Um, I see my role shifting over the past few years. My role as CIO is classically supporting primary process, right?

We need to get laptops working, the network working. Everything needs to be in place. No difficulties with apps and programs. But I think the role of a CIO is shifting. We need to be the business partner next to one another and that we have to make changes together.

So I said to my colleagues, you know what? If you want something done and if you want something to happen within your department, then you have to ask me as well, because you can't do it on your own. You can't tell me what to do. And as much as I can't tell you what to do, we have to do this together. So if you want things to let it happen, then you have to be.

The business has to be mandatory. It has to be presence. Um. Um, yeah. You have to work together.

Well, um, the other thing is we have to build consensus because, um, we can't have it, all right? We all want the diamonds and the golden curly things, but it's never going to happen. It's always too much. It's too, uh, it costs too much. So the true buy in across stakeholders ensures alignment.

So, um, it's you need commitment. It goes smoothly to execution if you build a consensus in front, um, and the, the other one, what helps us is to empower decision. If you have a two day together offsite, and you have to get out of the room with a working app or with a working case type, um, then you you have to empower the decision, um, that at the end of the two days, it's there. So, uh, we learned over that two days that, um, if you are working close together, then it's much easier to empower those powders decision. But basically we had your base at the table and not the business.

So we we were happy, but we weren't sure if the business was happy. Yeah. So so at the end we said, oh, we should have we should have invited the actual business. So it was a we do learning. We do it right now.

Yeah. Actually the people that weren't that happy were the business analysts. Did you remember? Maybe we can skip to that. Well, I'm sure we'll we'll get to that later.

Yeah. So business analysts here you go. Um. We had some business analysts here, right? Yeah. One, two. Yeah. Pay attention. Well, I must say, at the first morning of this two day experiment, uh, one of my business analysts was saying. Yeah, you know what, Yvonne?

I think it's really nice, but I think I still can do better. Um. And I still can think. You can't do this without me. And I said, well, let's assume we can.

What will happen to your job? And she was. Yeah, she was a little bit anxious, but hey, you know what? Um, there's always room. You know what?

If AI takes over some some of the work, new work will be there afterwards. So, um, I said to her, uh, we we invented this this whole new, uh, case. Typekit Blueprint. I said it needs to be tweaked. It needs to have a little bit of extra.

So if you now go outside the room and try to tweak this, this piece of case type and everything to come out of Blueprint, then are still a very important job for you to to do. It doesn't end up with the case type, and it's a magic wand that works all, all things out for you. So, um, yeah, I think the role of the business analyst is really shifting and from writing requirements we go to writing prompts. That's actually what we're going to do. And that's also what we are going we are going to do in the current society is you need to learn about how to prompt the right things instead of asking questions.

Right. And as Don said this morning, get rid of BPMN and just start using Blueprint and yeah, and and App Studio to, to develop things instead of writing down things on paper. Yeah, it'll, it'll be getting used to but it'll be the future for the business analyst. Another important thing is you need your business analyst to, to connect with your business. You can't you can't put only business and it at the table.

So the real time collaboration is necessary. Um, and it makes you unable to get faster to results. Um, and it actually helps you to get more accurate as well. So you have to design together so that you can move faster. And the configuration with App Studio.

Yeah, that's more your kind of stuff. I assume maybe you can tell something about that. Uh, well, I think, uh, it's become so much easier, uh, than. Well, a couple of years ago and, uh, you needed an LSA to do the DCO sessions. I'm not sure if there's anybody up here that did Pega projects about, well, ten years ago.

I see some, some colleagues in which I recognize from a couple of years ago. And then, well, we did sessions with the business. We had the LSA and actually configure and uh, but that's, that's no longer necessary. That's sort of the changing to the role of the business analyst. Analyst.

Um, because it's just so much easier. It was easy then we thought, but now it's even easier. So, um, I'm looking forward to that. So maybe that's a good, uh. Step up to the future.

To the future. What are you? What is your. What do you want to do? Yeah.

For me, it was, uh, about, uh, six months. It was. Okay. How can we use this, um, into our next steps of our AI strategy? And I said, you know what a Blueprint is the future for for the state supervision.

Uh, we really need to, uh, to make a shift in the business analysts taking a different role. Um, one of these, uh, important things is we are transforming our current Pega Platform to Constellation. And we have a lot of, um. How do you say it? Custom build.

So we we need to take a lot of time to build to Constellation. And one of the things we we will be doing is getting out of this system, uh, case types and maybe processes, and put them backwards into Blueprint and see what happens, Because I'm really curious about what will what will be the outcome of that. Probably some of the processes can be redesigned. Some of them may be not. And be aware it's not a magic wand.

I already said we also have some very difficult processes that will not. It will not be helpful to use Blueprint for that. You still need your business analyst to, uh, to shape those, those processes. But, um, yeah, we will use it for, uh, for our Constellation transition. Um, and one of the main goals for me is I want to have, um, how do you call it?

Um, I lost the English word, um, a component based architecture. I want less components for Pega so that we can build faster and easier and also, uh, help our business to to conduct our policies easier and to Pegasystems. Yeah. So we have a big change ahead. We talked a lot about your road towards the future, and we did a two day session on Blueprint.

But we also talked about what do you need to do in order to get there. Because it's it's the shift is dramatically. It's just the speed is fantastic. But that's it. And what about your organization?

Is your organization ready for it or do we create, as I would like to say, a highway with traffic lights on it. We just drive from one red light to another while there is a highway called I or called called Blueprint. And so you need to make sure that that if you do sessions like Blueprint or, or with AI, that you have your end user there, that they actually make decisions, that you don't come back to the organization like, oh yeah, yeah, thanks. Thanks for the input. But I need to go back to the steering committee or to the program board or a combination of them or.

Well, Well, I once did a project and I think we had a handful of those decision makers, and it's just that you don't have the time yet. You've got it, which is fantastically fast and you need to you need to look at your organization whether you're ready for it and make make the adjustments if, if necessary. Um, well, get the people on board in an early stage. Make sure that they that they, you know, the requirements from your, uh, architecture board, your security board, and make sure that they don't end up being a red light on your highway. Um, and that's I think that is a big part of your journey.

Um, in order to adopt Blueprint, because it's just a Blueprint will do its work and it will give you results. But then you entered into the organization and you might come across a few hurdles to. Actually actually saying this is that you have you can have Blueprint and you can have Pega and you can have all the good people. But what you also need to have is your change processes and your, um, the shift that people need to make. You need to manage that as well.

Without that, you have a great Blueprint. Yeah. And that's that's a good question. That's a good one. Okay.

So so more or less coming. Towards the end of our presentation and leaving a bit of a clock there if you usually sit up there, but there's a nice clock and it's 14 minutes left. So we got lots of time for um for, for questions. And hopefully we provide you with the answers. But just to, to summarize things well roughly it's about 70% time saving. So in terms of the progress in the for the BA from four months to, well, roughly roughly a couple of days. Yeah. Um, so there's a huge amount of time saving at that end to be together. Um, but you need to step up with the involvement. I come across lots of projects with the business not being able to provide any input.

Um, but that needs to change. The input of the business needs to come across, come a step up. Massively. Yeah. Um, and, well, you increase your, your quality of your, uh, of your end to end result, uh, obviously.

And we we came across a lot of examples of, we Blueprint came with a suggestions we didn't think of. So obviously that improves your, your quality surprise you. That's actually what you're saying. And I think I mentioned it before and I will, uh stress it out again. It's be careful on complex processes, so complex processes with lots of steps and lots of turning points.

And maybe don't start with those. Start with the easy ones and manage also the expectations from a change point of view. You can implement it and say, hey, this is the magic wand, but it also can be your silver. Yeah. It's not it's it's not a magic wand for everything.

No it's. Not. But you have to manage those expectations. Because if the business comes to you and you go to this two day offsite and have your process designed and maybe also designed within your Pega system. Um, well, maybe it will not be the outcome of that of those two days.

So manage the expectations well and take your steps together with the business. Business. And it need to need to go hand by hand and uh, well yeah, that's actually how we should have always done it. Well, we've done it in the past. Yeah.

Well, that's a different story. Well, we did, if we have time left, if there are no any, there are no questions. We'll, we'll we'll share our story on that part. But maybe there's some questions from you which we can help you with things that weren't clear. Please, can.

You come. If you can come to the mic? And, um, we've been told that the recording. You have to get all the way. Everybody can see you.

Yeah. So quite a success story, of course, but what are the major takeaways or learning points you got from it? Because I think there were probably also some hiccups in this whole process or not at all. Uh, well, the most important one is that you need to be the business needs to be engaged. That's that's actually the main thing.

Um, we said to one another, if you if you design like a two day offsite, make it make the business at the table, start with the business story, um, and then make breakout sessions that the business analyst will take its time to, uh, to finalize the process that the business can take time to make arrangements on. Okay. How are we going to work together that you have also your implementation partner at the table? That's actually the most important things, but it's a no brainer. We guys know you guys know how to change how management of change works.

So, uh, use your, uh, and Dutch, we say use your farmer brain, right? Yeah. And you mainly use Blueprint in the design process then. Right. And then you have the continuous normal Sprint rhythm afterwards to actually develop it.

Yeah. Yes. So far. Yeah. But I personally think that you should get rid of the Sprint rhythm once you start using Blueprint, the the time is increasing so much that you don't want to wait two weeks, two weeks.

So we need to figure out a new way of working. I haven't figured it out yet, but fossil. Deployment. I think. I think in Sprint it's it's too slow.

Yeah. I didn't think about a couple of years ago, but now we think it's it's too slow. Yeah. Interesting. Thanks.

You're welcome. You answer my question. Thank you. Okay. And we have another question.

Yeah. Thank you very much. This may be too simple a question, but when I talk about Blueprint, I find myself wanting to say, if you use Blueprint, some percentage of your application will be developed in that Blueprint process. Are you comfortable throwing out a percentage? Oh, apparently, no.

Um, no, actually I don't because we are starting to move with Constellation like this month. So it's too early for me to say and to put a number on that, so. Yeah, I understand your question, but maybe ask me again within six months, then send me an email. It's hard. Yeah.

Maybe to elaborate a little bit on on your answer. Um, it's hard to put in in percentage because we we didn't take it to production. Uh, this this example. But what I've, I've noticed is that especially the development part is just way easier in, in a day. And I think once you start doing it a couple of times, you can increase that as well.

That's that's what you take in a day, which would normally take you about a week. So you can do the math. I would think it depends on the complexity of fair enough. And from a selling perspective, you don't want to say 80% in this set expectations. You don't want to say maybe 30% or anyway.

The obviously the the what Blueprint does is gives you the happy path. So if you have a process with a lot of exceptions, a lot of U-turns, well then you need then you need some more discussion and and then your percentage of gain will be less obviously. Um, and then. The success rate will go up if you make your processes less complex. I think that's the answer.

So yeah, it's a balance for you. Hi. Yeah. Thank you. Um, I just wanted to thank you both for centering the role of business analysts in your presentation, because I think we sometimes get overlooked, but very, very vital.

Um, and I, I was wondering if you could speak to the experience you had with your two day offsite, um, in any more detail in terms of, like, um, pitfalls or emphasis that you wanted to place? Because that's something I think that, um, could be replicated at my, um, my place of employment. So just if you had any more to say about that specifically. Pitfalls. You mean from your business analyst point of view?

Yes. Yeah. Um, well, one of the main things is don't think for the I that's that's it really needs to you need to think in almost storytelling than in a business analyst way of thinking. That's maybe the most important advice I can give you. And it's also the largest pitfall.

But don't think you are not mandatory anymore. It's it. It will help you, as a business analyst to, um, to shift from the more important part of the work. It's not like the mainstream process that will be designed because you can use Blueprint for that. Um, but what you need to do is to tweak it.

You need to be there together with your business, because if you don't tweak it for the right reasons and with the right point of view, you will not get the process that you want to design or the case that you want to design. So, um, it's too easy to think it's the same with ChatGPT if you don't check the answer, then you probably get maybe not the right answer. So still use your brain and your own knowledge, um, is very important. Yeah. And get a get a general idea of what you're looking for.

Yeah. Uh, because otherwise you're probably happy with the first result because you're blown away whatever is on the screen. But if you don't know this isn't this process, then you can't you can't tweak it because the first result is never the end result. You need to get discussion. I'm not sure if your question is if I can elaborate a little bit more, uh, is to get people actually using Blueprint.

Yeah. So we haven't used it yet. Okay. So, you know, it's it's, um, I think it would be a really fabulous tool. And I'm thinking from the perspective of trying to get people exposed to it and sort of start playing around.

Yeah. So my, my. Yeah, that's I was going to say what I really admire how you, uh, got your people at the table is that they had an open mind and basically any outcome would have been good. Yeah. So you get a really open atmosphere.

You can you can try things And and don't try to to push it towards something. Otherwise it won't be an experiment. And then then you sort of take away the pressure of people and have an open discussion of what it does to people if you start using it, because that roughly. Well, we did we did come across it that day. But I think you had a lot of talks afterwards with your business analysts.

I did. Yeah. So make room for that too, because it could be threatening. But it's try to Google way of working, you know, let's try and see what happens. And if there is no result, which I don't think so.

But if there is no result then just drive away from it again. But have the discussion also from a change management point of view, because it's very important for your own role and how people will work together in the future because things will shift. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.

You're welcome. So are there any more questions or somebody standing up? Running away or coming to the mic. Uh, I was wondering, with Blueprint, I can imagine if you need to do Greenfield, uh, a new process without having an existing context, but but how much work would it be if you need to implement what you, uh, imagine within Blueprint within your current application stack? Do you have any experience with that?

Um, the process that we use during the pilot, um, it took us months to get the use case that we had, um, and we, uh, we shifted away and said, let's do it again and let's, let's redesign it again. Um, we also we implemented it and it took us, I think, in the end, six weeks, um, to have the same process implemented in our current system. And usually it took us before four months. Yeah. So what, um, what we came across during that second day that we saw that the way it was set up was a bit different than in their application in terms of data model, etc.

and that's where the effort comes in. And I haven't checked it with the latest version, but I think it will evolve because it obviously is the next step. It's good for mockups now. And you you get what I call a clickable application in which you can provide to your end users. The next step will be is that you take into account the way that the current application is set up and and give information about the data model and and all the things that you make your application unique.

So you don't have any. I don't have any experience. No I don't. No. No.

Well, in upcoming months. Yeah. Yeah. Curious. Yeah.

Any more questions, or are we shifting to lunch? Everybody hungry? Applause. And applause. And fireworks.

And like a wave. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you.