PegaWorld 2026: Reimagining Client Engagement: Standard Chartered Bank’s Journey to AI Driven Personalisation at Scale

Good morning everybody. Okay, before we start, I just want to understand the room a little bit. We'll keep it a little bit more interactive. Uh, my name is Bashir. I will do an introduction. I'll talk about what I cover at Standard Chartered, uh, and what has been our journey over the last couple of years. But before we do that, I just want to understand. And with a raise of hand of three cohorts of people. So I'll try and personalize this as much as possible. So if we start to talk about the clients FSI. Non FSI. Okay, so that's one Pega. Some very familiar names and faces. Okay. No, I just want to understand a little bit more of the people I've seen. And if you look at partners of implementation partners with. Okay. Understood. Okay. All right folks. Um, I think before we start, just a question for us to think about of your interaction with banks or FSI, what kind of an experience do you feel?

And if you just recap last few interactions and outbound interaction with you or an inbound interaction, how do you feel of it? Was it relevant enough or did you feel it was more of another campaign that came to you as an outreach messaging? Did the Institution have the context, the relevancy to reach out and address the need that you. Carry or wear in the journey you are. Or it was more a blast out that you received. Just keep that thought with you and I'll talk about how we are trying to reimagine and draw North Star for client engagement, and why I'm so passionate about it. I will. I'll go into a little bit more detail and cover, but before, before we go to the core topic, a little bit of an introduction, starting with the bank that I represent, Standard Chartered. Standard chartered is a global bank with a large presence in Asia and Africa.

Uh, and we sit in some of the fastest growing markets in these continents. And I'm part of wealth and retail segment And our strategy focuses on few things. It looks for customers and address sophisticated needs for customer on wealth and affluent for cross border clients who have needs across multiple markets. And how do we enable them? And we are seen in the market as a super connector bank and an institution which connects people across these geographies that I talk about. Now, a little bit about myself. I've been with the bank for 18 years. I've set up many businesses managing products, segments, channels. I've run a couple of large transformation programs within the bank as well. And I've burned my hand a few times and seen some pitfalls, which I'll try and talk about and what has worked in my journey. In my current role, I take care of digital sales and engagement journeys.

What it means is I manage the experiences of these journeys, The underlying MarTech tools, the data that is the fuel to these journeys as well. On personal side, I'm married. I've. I've. One teenager and another teenager soon to be. And you can see I'm quite loyal. Guy who has been hammered for the last 1213 years as a United fan, but I'm sticking to them. The the, there is a turnaround happening there and hopefully, hopefully in coming years, we'll be back to the glory days of where this club has been. I'm a very hardcore United fan. Okay, so now to the little serious stuff. Okay, so if I if I go back 2 or 3 years into where we've been as a bank, most of our communication to customers looking in the back mirror was campaign led. There's nothing wrong with it, right? You got to reach to the customer first underlying.

If I look at the infrastructure which was implemented, it was mostly either we call it mfu, manual file upload or a little bit of batch data, which was moving in to run these campaign calendars and journeys were less client centric, sorry to say, as a financial institution, more product, how to get the next product for the customer. And we saw some gaps and a bigger opportunity, which we have tried to implement. And this is that how do we start to bring more relevancy? You got to reach to customer. Of course that is essential, but how do you make it relevant for them in a moment of the journey that they are operating in is extremely, extremely important and that is what makes them engage or drive what we call CTR click through rates. When stuff is not pure marketing, but also relevant and value added for the customers.

Within this there was a lot of, if I in full transparency, there was a lot of grunt work. There's. We've got few partners here who have experienced a lot of the hard work we have gone through, and we have pushed through these campaigns, and speed to market was a big challenge, as well as an opportunity for us to increase the throughput. So that's looking in the last 2 to 3 years. Now, if we start to synthesize all this, uh, predominantly predominantly, if I talk about it, there are five things that I would call out that we have tried to do failed some places be a little bit more successful. Others. First is how do we bring all the ingredients together before cooking the dish? It's extremely important. You got to look at the ecosystem. And again, going back to some of the partners, the talent that we did not carry inside.

We had talent injection. We leveraged and leaned on Pega teams. We set up our organization, we call it one delivery, where looking at the sales and engagement journeys of a customer that goes through, how do you build an organization which is looking at micro journeys? Now what is a micro journey? A micro journey could be busier as a customer getting acquired through a digital channel. What happens in the honeymoon period within first couple of weeks within the first 90 days. How do I activate? How do I fund in journeys? How do I engage a customer? How do I introduce and hand over to an relationship manager? All those are micro journeys which are managed by one team. Okay. And the way the organization is put together is there's a product owner, there are designers, there are front end, back end developers, they are CDH experts, all sitting mostly in one room designing and implementing together.

And we've got 30 of these squads looking at multiple journeys. So the first one is establish the ecosystem and evolve it over the period of time. Second is how to make sure that you don't miss the forest for the trees. And why do I say it? A lot of the time when these fancy tools come, you rush and crowdsource a lot of ideas. Okay, give me a few use cases. give me few use cases I will go implement and some of this. We made mistakes in this as well. Our learning is for a moment spend time in discovery. Look at the customer profile. If you have 100 customers, hopefully you will have a lot more. Look at that base and look at the journeys that they are going through. What sort of experiences do you need to string together is very important, which is your top down approach?

We we did it quite later and in the cycle. Second is don't keep it theoretical. Also, let the ideas bubble up from these multiple squads within the one delivery as we call them. So portfolio management and stringing everything together on a life cycle is a second important piece in our journey. Then, while passionately we have pushed for campaign velocities, doing more, more, more, but for sustenance, for value creation over a long period, you don't need to bombard customers through campaigns. You got to think of experiences which are embedded within the journeys that you are trying to draw out, right? So that's the third thing. You got to create these experiences which are going to fuel the sustained growth. Fourth, a lot of people will come to you and sell you tools. Tools are important, but be mindful of the TCO total cost to operate. What do you need for these journeys?

Tools on its own. While I have a tribe, we call it hive. Since we operate in Africa, we don't call them tribes. We call them hives. There's a Maantic hive within the organization. Our strategy is be very clear of the multi layer of tools that you are implementing in the organization from install to run. How much effort do you require and where does it solve a problem for you? Instead of every annual planning year you get another tool you go implement, get another tool and forget about all that is being built as a tech debt. Last, I think, within the ecosystem. One thing we have tried to do a lot more. Now there is pressure to do. We call Seydou or whatever. We say we try and deliver, but also look at the value OKRs. Look at these value OKRs from a Sprint level to quarterly planning and have big room plans instead of going for Big Bang multi-million dollar projects and programs to deliver, we generally chunk it up.

We put capital into multiple squads. We change every year. The composition of the team. But we let them run and select the backlog through the sprints. So that's our five things that we have tried to do. And in our journey in the last 2436 months. If I talk about three things that we have tried to change. First is as we started this journey, and I'll not count 2023 because it had a very small base from 24 to 26 forecasted. We have billions of impressions now going out to our customers. Now, this is the first step that we have tried to reach to customer in some relevancy. Second is speed to market because we are doing a lot more automation. We are trying to build the data pipelines, build intelligence on top of it, and present to customers in a coherent manner than before. Our speed to market has massively taken up.

It's three times more. 70% of go to market has been shrunk. And this is not only because of our team. We are bringing multifunctional teams together, sit together mostly in co-location environments, and try and shrink the delivery cycles as much as possible. And the last one is the income, the green dollar. We have seen close to. I'm really pushing with the team to grow this by three X in the last three years, which is a massive shift from where we used to operate in 2023 versus the numbers that we are clocking now through this little engine that we are putting together. Now, just to double click, I'll not spend a lot of time on this. This is just one snapshot of how we see customers. So if we have 10 million customers globally within wealth and retail, you plot every customer through these macro journeys.

And within this they are micro journeys which are linked to data signals, which are linked to our experiences that are strung together. Based on this, there are two areas which I think I've called out as experiences, because it's very important that you build these experiences rather than only an outbound outreach communication. The first one is, for the first time, we build an upgrade journey in a large millions of customers. How do you use data signals offers models to identify customers to take them into an upgrade journey in a single click upgrade journey? How do you build that for FSI? You would understand AUM. How do you build the balance sheet using it then? Secondly, I think as a honeymoon experiences of customers as they walk in either into a single market or multiple market, how do we build the experiences and continuously look at what needs to improve now?

Okay. So while there is no secret sauce to it, but the cake that we have tried to build over the last three years, it's not perfect, but we are trying to perfect this recipe or over is basically in three layers at the bottom of it, which is the most important piece is data. Okay? Data where we started was a lot of this batch. It was getting manual files getting uploaded. Now we have built real time data because for us to personalize for our customers in the moment that they are in, to bring intelligence to them. It is very important to have real time data pipes on this data. And there is some intelligence, and the core intelligence engine is CDH as a product where we are building this intelligence, where we are feeding this data in and leveraging it to present to the presentation layer.

We started with little disparate channels, but we are trying to bring it together and feed it back continuously for it to improve our intelligence, to bring meaningful outcomes for the moments the customers are in. And there's a lot more integration work that has happened in these three layers. Where we operate now is about 1200 to 1300 data attributes. About 35% of them are real time, including model data getting fed. Back Then the intelligence about 600 use cases across the client Life cycle. We try and replicate across markets as well and a different channels to connect to customers in coherently. So now. Okay. Okay. Uh, one of our colleague here is asking how many geographies and what do we do? We started with two geographies. We try to do it well within our two crown jewels of businesses. Uh, Hong Kong is our largest business and Singapore.

These are two large businesses. Now we are we are on verge of implementing this in, uh, in China, Taiwan this year, uh, India, Malaysia, UAE are implemented. And then we are thinking of Korea for coming year. So these are eight large businesses we have. And the idea is to replicate rather than to build it for every market as we go along. Okay, so in our journey, there are four key learnings that I want to share with you guys. So hopefully you will remember as you go back from PegaWorld one is while it might feel that I'm saying that campaigns are not good, but campaigns are essential for the outreach to customers. But once you have an outreach implemented, you got to migrate the thought into moments. You got to think about leveraging real time data, combining with whatever batch data, because everything doesn't need to be real time.

It'll be super expensive. If you start thinking that I need to bring everything real time, the analytical data has to be over large period, stored batch, and need to be integrated with real time data to create relevancy for the intelligence layer and think about the moments, the moments the customers are across the life cycle. How do you feel? Feed the intelligence layer with these moments. I think that's very, very important. I think second is, and something we experimented last year with our partners is. Everybody could talk about moments, right? But how do you get a feed of these moments is very important. You get it through a real time data. But how do you understand your customers more? What we have tried to do is we have tried to build engagement layers with customers. What does it mean if I open my app Standard Chartered Bank and hopefully everybody is a customer?

If not, you should be a customer of Standard Chartered Bank. On the main page, there is a content feed that we have put. It's one of the initiatives that we are trying to do. The reason for putting that content feed. We get about 100,000 customers in Singapore. I'm just talking about one market. Come in daily into the app. Okay. Within this, about 25% of them are reading the content. This content is wealth market content. They are leaving breadcrumbs. They are leaving for us to learn more of our customer to serve them better. And those breadcrumbs we are collecting every day, and we are trying to bring it together more coherent advisory later on, more coherent messages into relationship managers that what is really mattering to our customers. So when we say you got to build your North Star, it's very important that you build this data collection intelligence within engagement, and it becomes a continuous feed as well.

So try and understand customers a lot better. Third thing is everything is not digital and within our model there is a close collaboration that is required between relationship managers because we are an affluent wealth bank. Uh, but at the same time, digital covers engagement of 70 to 80% of what insights are we providing to our customers when they wake up in the morning, they open the app, they go through these content feeds. They are in certain moments, oh, the market fell. If somebody is on in the East, the markets fell last night. There will be some CIO content within the app, how the commodities are moving. So they go through some of this, they understand we understand them a little better, and then we connect at the right time with the relationship managers and that relationship managers try and bridge for the complex products and advisory directly to them.

So it's not about digital, only direct to customer. There's a close collaboration. And what we have seen is when you bring human in the loop of this intelligence, you learn a lot more, you provide a lot more outreach to customer, but you need that human for complex and where you need trust in certain interactions and sales. So I think that's been our learning. We have started jogging together. We have not been doing it for very long. We have started doing this recently and we are seeing value in this greatly. Okay. Last one and I talked about it. If you want to build scale, if then always build an ecosystem where you're looking at continuous improvement. Agree on three four key OKRs. You don't need millions of these. OKRs at the enterprise level. What really matters and what you need to change this year? Start to break it down into OKRs of the functions that you are working with.

Second is set the ecosystem based on your appetite. I'm not saying you bring 100 people together for this on day one, but if you don't bring people together, if you don't put that operating model together, it'll be very, very difficult for you to scale, understand? Where are the gaps on people? I don't have talent. That's okay. I have this talent. I don't have this talent. I will bring in this talent either through partner or I will hire in the market. I have this process in a certain state. I have this technology in a certain state. I will install this to bring better experience to customers. And that is what I feel brings scale or what limited scale we have been able to implement. Now. Slightly a sneak preview into into future of what are we working on? I'll I'll keep this little limited because some of this has not gone to market, but some of it has recently gone.

Uh, there are five things we are working. Uh, number one, everybody is seeing conversational AI conversation with customers through an interface as a new dimension. What is the role of CDH? I talk less about these tools, but there is a core role that the CDH is playing in this. We call it CI. It's in a beta version. We are slowly. In a recent investor day, we have introduced in breakout sessions. This is something that we are working on in our core markets. We are giving this in our customers palm for them to have direct interaction. This feeds back into our arms as well. So there's a deep connection of intelligence at the back of it and it all. There are multiple features we have started to build in order to enrich that experience for our customers. This is something we are investing much into. And over coming quarters, you will see a lot of these rollouts within our mobile experiences because that's an interface which is changing at the presentation layer, and there's a lot of intelligence that goes behind it.

Second is I talked about hybrid. That is something knowing where we operate in the market, relationship managers and wealth advisors play a big part. We are trying to fuze these channels together, so it doesn't feel like there are multiple banks reaching out to customers. So it's one bank going to customer. If I talk about again experiences. You open any app today, any financial institution app generally for every customer. If there are multiple people in the room for same bank, you will see the experiences to be quite similar. They'll be personalization within containers within certain variables, but we are trying to move away from it. What you see on top versus another customer seeing. There's a lot of experimentation that we have started based on where in the life cycle you are. It's very important to show you what is truly relevant. And the personalization doesn't need to be sitting within a container and with a header, everybody sees and there's a sprinkle of personalization within it.

We want to personalize the whole experience. Fourth is we are using CDH slightly more than an arbitration tool or an intelligence tool. We are using it as an eligibility into fulfillment, into pricing. And that pricing sits within wealth systems connected to it. It sits with our lending systems, sits with our deposit systems, looks at client pricing, and how do we run eligibility for customers to give that personalization flavor. And lastly, I think, uh, our friend here asked about the markets. We started this journey in two markets. Now we're expanding in another five markets. And we have an intent to cover this across 9 to 10 markets, which are material markets for us. I'll pause here. But the key takeaway is. depending on where you are in the journey or where you are helping somebody in the journey. Outreach is important, but after a point you will see that the curve will start to taper.

You will not see incremental engagement or ctrs. How do you build that? You got to go finer. That finer needs to sit with data, which is real time. It needs to sit on experiences where the customer feels that experience and it is contextual. So they don't feel it's pure marketing, pure marketing. There's some value that they are taking away from it. I'll end it here for Q&A. Thank you for the great session. My name is Amrish. I'm a Citi and I do a similar role there about digital transformation and digital sales. One of the questions I had was about the hybrid journey orchestration. So you're trying to connect the digital and the offline behavior, right? How do you connect the offline and the digital world? So the question is hybrid implementation. Where I think we have started is we build these use cases or these treatments generally for DIY journeys to start with.

Now there's a CDH connector as a tool. I'm okay to share some of this. We use dynamics Microsoft Dynamics as a presentation layer. And these there's a deep integration between CDH and dynamics, our CRM tool. There are containers for Ms. based on their portfolio. There are some top three four insights that they see every day when they come in that these are the most relevant use cases for them. Number one. Number two, at a customer level, we look at tagging of multiple journeys we synthesize into where have they gone? Customers have gone. So. MM. When before the meeting. There are a lot of other intelligence that comes to mm on the portfolios on a lot of things, but also on the behavior of a customer. We are able to pull it together and synthesize that. They were exploring this, these funds. They were exploring reading about gold.

What is happening with gold. They were they went through a sales funnel and dropped on this field down to a field. Tagging is available. It gets synthesized. It gets pushed into CRM at a customer level as well. Insight. So these are two type of insight. One at a portfolio where we start with three four insight every morning. Second is on behavioral insights. It gets pumped in into the CRM and they are able to see it. We do little synthesization and that synthesized output through LLMs goes into CRM as an output. What was the going from batch filled data to real time data? What was the biggest obstacle you guys ran into and how did you overcome that? Okay. If you introduce yourself, that will be helpful for my. Oh, really? Yeah. Jeff Abernethy Citizens Bank. Okay, fantastic. So the question is, uh, data ingestion. We have not fully cracked it.

Frankly, it's the most painful for pretty much every organization, but I think, uh, hand to heart, uh, the grunt work that has happened on data, it enables a lot of these things which are coming through now leveraging LMS and other AI tools, because without data, you aren't able to do it. Now, what we have tried to do is generally, generally, uh, we have tried to take two strategies. There's a data event strategy, which is a recent strategy we are trying to implement, which means that the underlying GP systems or transactional processing systems are emitting data. Now, the challenge with this approach is that these legacy systems need to emit events. That is a lot of cost. But for core systems, we have a little odds where these emits data are emitted, it's collected, and then there are multiple areas. Second strategy is our process APIs or APIs to pull data from these downstream systems when there's a need for it.

So there's a pull strategy. There's a push strategy. Third strategy, which is the core of it, is definitely through batch data jobs that we accumulate for analytics. We pull these attributes. 65% of our attributes are batch. We pull them together. And over the last two years, we have built a large repository of about 1200 attributes. So that's there's a variety of strategy points. There's no one fit all. And the underlying type system, you got to extract this data into a middle layer, and that middle layer then exposes it to, uh, to CDH. And that CDH then decides and you push it into the experience layer. Yeah. Roy from Pega Achmea region. Thanks for sharing. I'm particularly interested in the hybrid journey orchestration because wealth management is very relational based. Your relationship managers know on field what products really sell and what not. Are these rmbs actually giving back the insights and inputs back into CDH to be able to learn better and all this.

Yeah. So early days, they are giving back. And the way we have done this is into the adaptive models is generally the way the adaptive models work is you put a treatment in, let's say you put a banner for a customer when they come in, they look at it, they scroll by, they don't do anything. There's no reaction. There's a feed that goes back into CDH zero, one and zeros, right? Similarly, for rMse, what we have done is when they have that conversation, they record it back. They record it back. And we do a post 15 day attribution effort as well. So there are two things that we do attribution. We do it offline. Anybody who has interacted because you can't leave it to last click. You got to see the first click in this. So we do through feed and we also do attribution at the back of it that within we take 15 days for these products of what sort of interaction a customer has gone through a funnel, read something, went, started it and closed it with an RM.

We attribute it back into digital as well into hybrid. And we have direct to customer attribution separately. If you could go to one of two previous slides back. Yeah. So myself, Rasheed, I come from Dubai. Emirates. NBD. Emirates National Bank of Dubai. I run the business practice of Pega CDH over there. There's my colleague over here, Mr. Zahn, who runs the technology part, who heads the technology part? One major, uh, like I've been running, we have been trying to run this thing for the past two years. Uh, the Pega CDH practice and get it adopted inside our organization, where in parallel, there is a lot of legacy organization, legacy systems, and all running. So it's pretty difficult to talk about this, uh, moving from offers to experiences or moving from campaign calendars to all this real time and all because see, you should be also Mark tech guy, not a only marketer guy, because there is a whole legacy marketing team or department sitting over there who will come up with their own campaign calendars, their own campaign, uh, objectives or something like that.

They won't have this concept of real time or experiences or that for them it's always campaigns and all. So in CB or something like that, like, uh, when you are saying that moving from offer, from campaigns to more of experiences and all. Is there a kind of an experiential engineer or experience engineer or customer experience engineer sitting in the marketing system? My main problem is that I am not a marketer guy. I'm not a soul marketer guy. I'm a marketer guy enabling the requirements for the marketing team or the product team. So they'll say, launch this campaign through your system. And at that point of time, I have to show some ROI of Pega CDH. So I'll have to run it their way rather than getting the whole, uh, you get what I'm trying to come, right? Like unless there is a mandate of any of these legacy systems or at the product teams or the marketing teams, techno marketing people cannot be a big success.

Understood. Very clear. Just to recap the question and a little bit of feedback and his thinking of where they are. I think what is important, and I'm sorry, I'm forgetting your name. Rasheed. Rasheed. Rasheed talked about the challenge and the pull and push that happens within the organization. It happens everywhere. It happens in every organization. It's it's not going to stop tomorrow. It will stay there. But how do you set it up at the top is very important. Rasheed. What we did was we fuzed this function together brought in a partner as well because there were many areas which were missing and we had one team responsible. So I'm part of business, but I have tech teams roll up to me as well. So there's one unit of four, 500 people who are marketeer experience people. They are AI engineers. There's front end, there's back end.

So we have organized ourselves by a journey. We are responsible for value creation within that journey. While there are product and segment teams, I have managed product in segment in the 1618 years I have spent with the bank, but intentionally we we have gone to this one delivery where people are responsible for delivering it fuzing this ecosystem together. Otherwise it becomes completely disparate or my marketing team is saying this because they are more lean on brand. My product team is saying I need to sell a card. No, the other one is saying I need to do a mutual fund, but my channels are saying something else, so it has to be fuzed together. Top of the house. If it's not fuzed together, Pega cannot solve it. Pega is going to make it worse because there will be a lot of debate of how do you set arbitration, governance and many things.

So it's more within the organization challenge of how you organize yourself. So who decides it? You said around 25 to 30 squads of CDH people. So how, if I may ask, how are these squads classified by segments? Maybe if you go to the mic. Okay. I'll repeat. So who decides? It's always the squad gets a brief ideas from the product and segment teams. So we have product and segment team in multiple markets. That brief comes. But at the same time, these product owners, part of the delivery organization, are accountable for certain value OKRs that they need to look at top of the funnel and conversion rate. The ideas come from product and segment. Product and segment is not going to say implement it this way. They will give some certain ideas on portfolios which get infused in the briefs. Then the experience gets created within the squad.

And of course, there's a bit of to and fro that happens. It's not fully smooth. Then you build it within that micro journey. Of the product owners in these squads. Where is their home? Where do they come from? This is the OK come from. Are they deputed from the product and segment teams or there is a some organization which is centrally managing it. Okay. Okay. So the thing is, I've got some partners here, which I've worked Accenture for the last three years. I think we started with two squads, two squads. We had the privilege of doing it. Bottoms up. Okay. Not every organization is like that. We started slow. We didn't want to speed it up. We had two product owners. Every product owner I have tried to pick every high lead who has a business knowledge and a bit of a unicorn, and also some technology, but tech is not mandatory.

You have got enough technologists in the team, somebody who can think of experiences and have some idea of how we create experiences for our customer and manager. So bit of a background of product and segment. I myself have been managing segments and products and businesses. Yeah. So that's a mixed bag. Hi I'm Ellen. I work at the Lcbo, which is the Liquor Control Board of Ontario in Toronto, Canada. Really enjoyed your presentation. My question is around your offers and your campaigns. How many of your offers and campaigns are you building that are new for an individual specific customer? And how much of it is existing that you're just serving to a more relevant audience? Okay. Okay. So I think we started, uh, this all depends on where you are in the journey. When we started three years back, everything was new, new. Uh, we made some choices, which were not great choices.

We started focusing on acquisition. If I talk about a lot of our use cases were here. Okay. You only acquire 1000 odd products in a month, right? Your portfolios are in millions. So how do you how do you start building this in parallel that you're building for the full portfolio and cross sell at start, you have to have an outreach campaign model only. But over a period of time, you need to understand that how am I going to understand a customer more? What is that data signal that I need to take and feed into an experience and show it to a customer? So where we started, in short, it was a lot here. Okay. New booking. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't do it this way. Okay, I would think of the portfolio first. Think of the customers that you carry. How do you maximize that portfolio better?

Then you go to the left. Now if I look at repository of segments and campaigns and experiences that come about 40% are enhancement to existing. So we are not building new, new, new, new new every Sprint we are evaluating through data what is working, what is not working. We got to expire this. We got to retain this. So there's a lot of experimentation under the hood that happens in order to curate these experiences so they don't become stale. Clearly. Another thing is anything, any banner, any content that stay for more than 90 days, 40 to 45% CTR drops completely drops. So of course there is a fatigue that sets in, so you need to keep it fresh. So sorry. We are going to have to stop it there out of time. But thanks again. That was a really insightful presentation. We can do it offline.

No problem. Thank you. Thank you guys.